Margaret Atwood on Doomscrolling: ‘I Want to Keep Up With the Latest Doom’

Margaret Atwood has spent astir of her 86 years penning prolifically crossed subjects and genres, from speculative fabrication to poesy to children’s books—often plumbing the depths of her ain relationships and experiences to bash so. But it’s lone present that the celebrated writer is putting her ain beingness to paper. In her precocious published memoir, Book of Lives, Atwood chronicles everything from her younker successful the Canadian wilderness, to her aboriginal nonrecreational years toiling successful comparative obscurity, to the assorted grudges and people settling she’s yet capable to undertake freely—since the radical involved, she notes, are present mostly dead.

Of course, Atwood agelong agone ascended from being defined simply arsenic a writer. She has become, peculiarly since her dystopian caller The Handmaid’s Tale experienced a timely resurgence during the archetypal Trump administration, thing of a sociocultural and governmental expert, asked to opine connected everything from dictatorships to reproductive rights to societal media. Her takes, it indispensable beryllium said, are often precise astute and precise good. They’re also, arsenic I learned during a lengthy and expansive speech with Atwood for The Big Interview podcast, inactive decidedly reassuring: In a 2023 interrogation with WIRED elder writer Kate Knibbs, Atwood said that she was inactive optimistic astir the United States. Despite everything that’s happened frankincense acold during Trump 2.0, she tells maine her stance hasn’t changed.

As a Canadian myself, the kid of a writer, and idiosyncratic who doesn’t judge successful god, interviewing Margaret Atwood is astir apt arsenic adjacent arsenic I’ll get to having a genuinely spiritual experience. Atwood was sharp, hilarious, and generous with her time—even leaving her landline telephone disconnected the hook erstwhile it wouldn’t halt ringing—as we talked astir the merits of jumping from gig to gig, the ins and outs of governmental resistance, doomscrolling, and much, overmuch more. Here’s our conversation.

This interrogation has been edited for magnitude and clarity.

KATIE DRUMMOND: Margaret Atwood, invited to The Big Interview.

MARGARET ATWOOD: Thank you precise much.

Thank you for being here. Now, we ever commencement these conversations with immoderate precise speedy questions, similar a warm-up for your brain. Are you ready?

I'm ever ready.

Typewriter oregon computer?

Right now, computer.

Spiritually though.

Spiritually, typewriter.

Pierre Trudeau oregon Justin Trudeau?

Oh, whoa. Woo. What a question. That is precise loaded. Do I get a prime of neither?

Yes. Neither is an option.

OK.

You elite neither?

Unfortunately, I cannot elite “neither” due to the fact that nobody's called that. But I don't beryllium to a governmental enactment and I usually ballot connected the ground of what the idiosyncratic is apt to do.

Fair enough. What is the champion and worst portion of literate fame?

The champion portion of literate fame is you don't person to enactment for a assemblage and you can't get fired.

Love that.

The worst portion is selfies.

Are you often asked for selfies?

In precise unusual places, specified arsenic the ladies' washroom. Do I let selfies? We're not gonna spell determination due to the fact that past I'll get conscionable truthful galore much requests for them.

OK. If Gilead took implicit Canada, which state would rebel first?

Quebec?

I thought you would accidental Quebec oregon Alberta.

Yeah, either one. I mean, you tin person some if you want. I don't cognize astir Alberta. They've had immoderate pretty, um, Gilead signs recently.

You're not wrong. For those unfamiliar with Albertan politics, I would picture it arsenic the astir Texas of the provinces.

But not precise Texas. I deliberation it's different 1 of those places that's precise divided betwixt agrarian and urban.

That makes sense. If you could unrecorded for 1 twelvemonth wrong immoderate book, which publication would you unrecorded inside?

Do we privation bid and quiescent oregon excitement?

Well, that's up to you, but excitement.

Well, and you person to accidental whether you'd beryllium the maid, whether you'd beryllium the cardinal character. It's beauteous specific. It's similar a past life. People who deliberation they've had past lives, they're ne'er a ditch digger. They're ever Cleopatra. So immoderate publication that I would similar to unrecorded inside, good now, what a question … For bid and quiet, Anne of Green Gables.

Well, that sounds lovely. I deliberation we tin bash that.

Yes, it's earlier World War I, nary atrocious things had happened. No atrocious 20th-century things had happened yet.

What is simply a misconception astir you that you secretly enjoy?

I deliberation I would connection up the rumor that was going astir successful astir 1960, 1970, that I dressed up successful pre-revolutionary French tribunal dress, including the wig, and prowled the streets of Toronto astatine nighttime successful this getup.

Why would you beryllium doing that?

I don't know, nor bash I cognize wherever this rumor came from, but it was a rumor.

That's a truly bully one.

The lone happening I tin fishy is that the rumor was supposing I'd been live since 1780, and was inactive wearing the aforesaid outfit portion looking for my prey.

Name thing humans volition inactive beryllium arguing astir successful a 100 years.

Gender.

I similar that. Now, let's spell backmost to the opening due to the fact that we are, of course, present connected the juncture of you publishing a publication each astir your 86 years connected earth, which I conscionable finished speechmaking implicit the weekend. It was a singular book. You wrote your archetypal communicative astatine 6 years old. You accidental determination wasn't overmuch other to bash successful the Canadian wilderness. I, arsenic a Canadian, americium inclined to hold …

No, lone erstwhile it's raining. You person to enactment “when it's raining.” When it's not raining, there's tons of different things to do.

Fair. I deliberation what was peculiarly absorbing to me, and what I didn't cognize astir your history, was that you spent precise ample portions of your puerility successful a precise distant portion extracurricular of Ottawa …

Much further northbound than that. So up northbound successful the Canadian boreal forest, either up the Ottawa River connected the Quebec broadside oregon implicit successful Sault Saint Marie, which is, arsenic you know, astatine the eastbound extremity of Lake Superior. What was I doing there? My dada was a wood entomologist, and those were the months, aft the crystal went out, until aft it froze, until it was freezing up, that's erstwhile insects are progressive and tin beryllium studied. Then successful the winters we would beryllium successful a metropolis wherever helium would constitute up his research.

So you are spending months and months astatine a clip successful the wilderness. How did that signifier you arsenic an adult?

Be prepared to improvise 'cause things break, right? You can't telephone the repair idiosyncratic 'cause you don't person a phone. There isn't one. So beryllium prepared to improvise. Never propulsion retired a bendy portion of wire. You volition request one. Just saying. If you wanna get mislaid successful the woods, travel with me.

My dad, successful summation to being a scientist, was besides what I telephone 1 of the aged bushy guys. So 1 of the aged woodsman-type of radical that utilized to beryllium reasonably communal successful Canada, but astir apt aren't anymore.

I mean, you spot them connected the streets of Toronto. They person large beards and flannel shirts, but they're cosplaying …

Uh, those are not …

No, I know. They're called hipsters now. The different portion that amazed me, though it shouldn't person been surprising, was however galore years, decades, you spent successful what sounded similar comparative fiscal precarity. You don't conscionable fast-forward to having written dozens and dozens of books.

No, not astatine all. No writer does.

So you got a occupation astatine a selling probe firm. After leaving Harvard, you jumped from gig to gig. You were a lecturer, a teacher, a writer successful residence, portion you were publishing these aboriginal books. Lots of people, I deliberation present much than ever, leap from gig to gig. That's the system that we unrecorded in. Would you alternatively person hunkered down penning books oregon was determination existent worth for you, successful hindsight, successful moving from relation to relation to role?

I deliberation it's precise valuable, peculiarly if you're penning novels, to person immoderate benignant of acquisition of however radical really unrecorded erstwhile they're not astatine quote, “creative penning school,” which didn't beryllium erstwhile I was doing those things.

I did person a poet, an older known pistillate poet, accidental to maine precise aboriginal on, successful astir 1961, “If you privation to beryllium a writer, you person to thrust a truck.”

Good luck with that arsenic a woman.

Yeah, bully luck with that arsenic a abbreviated pistillate successful the 1960s. It wasn't possible, but translating that into different things, similar different types of jobs, I deliberation that's right.

When did you realize, oregon was it a realization astatine all, that your ain beingness and those experiences, and the radical you met and your parents and truthful connected and truthful forth, would beryllium a root of storytelling and characters and inspiration? Did that hap organically?

I deliberation organically, for sure. My parents were some large storytellers. My parent told a batch of stories astir her family, which was extended and eccentric and from Nova Scotia. It was the norm successful those days to person an extended eccentric household if you were from Nova Scotia. She had tons of stories astir her youth, which took spot earlier centrifugal cars and tv oregon immoderate of those things, and were beauteous absorbing and funny. My dada was funny, too, but his stories were astir different things. They were usually astir horrifying adventures he'd had successful the backwoods.

I don't deliberation it was truthful overmuch astir the worldly that they were telling arsenic the information that they were telling it. Stories don't person to beryllium astir dwarves and Cinderellas, they tin beryllium astir radical you've known.

I noticed successful the publication that you notation to your dreams much than once. There are a fewer precise moving passages astir your parents dying successful particular. It is simply a precise poorly understood field. Scientists don't cognize wherefore we dream. It is simply a large aesculapian mystery. How bash you deliberation astir dreams and dreaming, and what is their value to you?

It is simply a universally shared quality characteristic. And we fishy it besides happens among dogs.

I person 2 dogs and they decidedly dream. They're moving. They're making small yipping noises. It's wild.

It's an absorbing area, and tons of cultures person been precise attentive to their dreams. But successful general, and you cognize this yourself, you person dreams that are conscionable benignant of taking retired the trash and small bits of this and that, and different ones that look to you to beryllium rather significant.

So wherefore bash those ones look to beryllium rather significant? Because they link with thing that's going connected successful your life. If you person a problem, let's accidental it's a originative problem, let's accidental it's a technological problem, and you spell to sleep, you often person the reply erstwhile you aftermath up due to the fact that your encephalon has been moving distant astatine it.

So going to slumber oregon going for a locomotion are often adjuvant erstwhile you're waiting for answers to travel retired of near field.

Do you constitute your dreams down?

I person done, I've written immoderate of them down, and radical person said besides that if you support a imagination journal, you're apt to retrieve them amended successful the morning.

I noticed that you recalled 1 imagination successful the publication from erstwhile you were 13, a nightmare that you had. I thought to myself, “She either wrote that down oregon she has a truly frighteningly bully semipermanent memory.”

I person a frighteningly bully semipermanent memory. Sorry.

I'm precise impressed.

My member said aft speechmaking my memoir—he's a antheral of precise fewer words—he said, “You look to person an unusually elaborate memory.”

I mean, he's correct. I can't retrieve what happened to maine yesterday morning.

Well, that's different. I can't retrieve what happened to maine yesterday morning, but you retrieve things of significance, not conscionable what you did yesterday morning. Not what you had for breakfast. It's things that basal out. So catastrophes, things that are precise funny, anserine things you did.

You person had a singular career, and successful galore respects, an improbable one. As we've talked astir already, it's not casual to marque adjacent a basal surviving arsenic a writer. Do you deliberation you would marque it arsenic a writer if you were successful your twenties contiguous alternatively of 60 years ago? What would beryllium antithetic today?

Well, a batch of things would beryllium different, but it's a meaningless question due to the fact that I would beryllium rather a antithetic idiosyncratic astatine 20. Then I punctual you that pantyhose had not adjacent been invented erstwhile I was 20. It was the acheronian ages.

But erstwhile you look astatine young writers …

First of all, successful Canada anyway, erstwhile I was 20, determination was not precise overmuch competition. Because lone a lunatic would've chosen to beryllium a writer. There were a batch of lunatics successful the bohemian underground penning assemblage astatine that time.

These were not the astir capable of people. I was rather abnormal amongst them. I wasn't an alcoholic. I wasn't a cause addict, and I didn't privation to perpetrate suicide. So what concern person you got being a writer? So present it's been much professionalized, I think, done tons of advice, seminars, and originative penning schools and radical saying, “Here's what you person to bash and this is however it works.” We didn't person a clue. Not 1 azygous clue. I didn't cognize what an cause was. I had nary thought what should beryllium successful a publication declaration oregon immoderate of those things.

So, it's much professionalized and much respectable. So much radical deliberation they're gonna spell into it, right? They get a definite magnitude of flim-flam shoved their way. You know, you're gonna constitute a archetypal caller and you're gonna get a six-figure beforehand and past you'll beryllium famous. And that doesn't hap precise often.

Or, let's enactment it different way. We were successful Ireland astatine a furniture and meal and we had a precise bully meal and we said to the man, “This is simply a truly bully breakfast.” He said, “I utilized to beryllium a chef.” And we said, “Oh, wherever were you a chef?” He named the restaurant. And we said, “Oh, what a coincidence. We had meal determination past night.” Pause. “How was the dinner?” We said, “Well, we thought it was beauteous good.” Pause. “Anyone tin navigator a bully meal once.”

You person a deed with a book. Now bash it again. Then bash it again, and bash it again.

Exceedingly unlikely.

It happens, but not to everybody who decides to bash that. Whereas with a lawyer, you're usually bound to get immoderate benignant of a job.

Yes, arsenic my dada reminded maine galore times.

It's precise risky. It's gambling. There's a batch of luck involved, and besides a batch of persistence due to the fact that you person to support doing it.

There's lone 4 ways of surviving arsenic an artist: Have wealth oregon wed money. People person done that. Have a patron, and that includes the Pope, the Canada Council, and everything successful between. Have a occupation that is not related to writing, a occupation successful the different world. Like T.S. Eliot worked successful a bank. Or spell to the market. So that means selling your books and surviving disconnected the proceeds. Very fewer writers tin bash that successful North America.

Did you ever earnestly contemplate moving to the United States earlier successful your career?

When I was astatine Harvard, it was rather tempting. Not that I would get hired by Harvard due to the fact that Harvard didn't prosecute women successful the English section astatine that time, but I got a missive from the Canadian authorities and it said, “We surely anticipation you'll travel backmost to Canada due to the fact that we truly request you.”

Oh wow. That's a bully missive to get.

I deliberation so. I wonderment however galore radical get letters similar that now.

You're the archetypal I've ever heard of.

So situated generationally, calved successful 1939, wartime baby, debased commencement rate, pursuing the Depression, debased commencement rate, followed by the post-war babe boom. People could spot this question of babies washing towards them and they knew they didn't person capable radical to capable the jobs to work those babies. So radical of my procreation were successful demand.

It wasn't a question of whether we would person a job, it was a question of what benignant of occupation we would have.

So did the missive bash it?

Certainly inclined maine successful that direction, positive the information that my pupil visa was gonna tally out.

I inquire due to the fact that for maine increasing up successful Canada, the prevailing contented was, Well, if you wanna spell big, you spell to the United States.

That was the prevailing opinion. And radical did accidental that to me, but they said, “If you privation to beryllium a writer, you request to leave.”

I privation to inquire you astir The Handmaid's Tale. Your sanction astatine this constituent is practically synonymous with prescient, whether you similar that oregon not. One facet I'm funny about, though, is exertion successful the book. Technology was not a cardinal portion of it, right? The Eyes are existent quality beings. People are punished successful these antiquated ways. There is nary wide surveillance apparatus the mode determination is successful the United States today. Even successful 1985 erstwhile you were penning it, surely determination was a grade of authorities surveillance …

Yeah, but you'd person to get into somebody's flat and rig them up, and bug it.

Sure. You would've had to bug it.

Yes, determination were those things, but determination were nary compartment phones. There was nary internet. I deliberation it segues OK contiguous due to the fact that those women would not beryllium allowed entree to those things anyway. As for a acheronian car driving by, you don't cognize what's successful it. You cognize that you're being surveilled, but you don't cognize how.

Was that a concerted determination successful penning the book, oregon was it simply a substance of penning successful a mode that reflected your context?

We had recognition cards, and that surely makes it into the publication due to the fact that what amended mode to marque women spell backmost into the location than chopped disconnected their jobs and recognition cards? Which is what's happening present successful the United States. There's really a question afoot to marque it intolerable for women to person recognition cards successful their ain names. That instrumentality was not changed until 1974.

Obviously the portion astir reproductive rights and reproductive state is incredibly salient contiguous and has been, unfortunately, for respective years. When you were penning the publication successful the eighties, did you consciousness a backlash to a woman's close to choose? Was that a speech that you were alert was happening?

I deliberation determination is simply a backlash against women's rights successful general, opening with the predetermination of Ronald Reagan and the emergence of the alleged spiritual close arsenic a governmental unit successful the United States. And I did support a scrapbook of what radical were saying. Newspaper clippings. Remember them? No, you don't.

I was calved successful ‘86, truthful …

Yeah, conscionable astatine the borderline of paper clippings. So they were saying that women beryllium successful the location and they were surely pushing backmost against a woman's close to choose. The ‘70s had been beauteous game-changing for women successful North America. So determination was a absorption to that successful the ‘80s. That's 1 of the reasons I wrote the book, due to the fact that what radical accidental they would similar to bash if they got power, due to the fact that I deliberation they volition really bash it.

Right.

Some radical say, “It's conscionable words. They don't truly mean it.” I ever deliberation they bash mean it. Then I think, however would you spell astir it connected a applicable level? So here's each these women moving astir similar gerbils having recognition cards and jobs and wealth and apartments of their own. How would you get them backmost into a male-dominated, controlled space?

Well, you wrote a spot of a playbook.

But it’s not new. It's not my playbook. It's what radical person done implicit time.

Sure. What was truthful absorbing to us, among different things that WIRED is covering successful this astir caller national election, was that the playbook had been written.

Oh yeah.

It was retired there. You could spell spot what they were going to do.

Yep.

He conscionable says these brainsick things. They would ne'er really … It's like, no, no. Take it literally, it's close here. You tin work what they're gonna do.

Yes. So the different happening was, I judge successful the Bible, literally. I conjecture they've ne'er work it.

Right?

Which portion of it bash you judge literally? Are we going to travel the lifestyles of immoderate of the radical successful it, due to the fact that they're beauteous terrible and weird. So, successful The Handmaid's Tale, the Handmaids are successful the Rachel and Leah communicative successful the Bible. That's wherefore I enactment that punctuation astatine the front.

I'm funny astir your instrumentality connected the saga of the lonely young man. I inquire due to the fact that it feels like, astatine slightest to me, and I deliberation to a batch of america sitting here, the con determination is truthful overmuch interest and speech astir young men online. It has, I think, eclipsed truthful galore conversations astir sex recently. It feels similar women are progressively excluded from those conversations. We're spending a batch of clip wondering what to bash astir the plight of the antheral erstwhile there's a batch that we could beryllium talking astir connected some sides. I'm wondering what you marque of that, oregon wherever you deliberation that comes from.

It's real.

Well, it is real. Sure.

But you're wondering wherefore radical are talking astir it. Well, they didn't for rather a agelong time. In fact, they beauteous overmuch ignored it. You could spot wherever it was going due to the fact that present came each of these young men who were told they were atrocious and cipher wanted to perceive to them anymore. It was nary longer the days of going dependable successful the ‘50s. That shows up successful statistics, however galore women are succeeding astatine assemblage and however galore men are dropping out. Because evidently they don't consciousness welcome. They consciousness directionless. They don't cognize wherefore they're doing each of this. They don't get a batch of, “Hey, you're great.” They get a batch of “shut up” and “we don't wanna perceive your opinions.”

So, they congregate successful bunches and worship Jordan Peterson due to the fact that they feel, arsenic young folks accidental now, they consciousness seen.

It's a crisis. There utilized to beryllium organizations that they joined. They joined ROTC; they joined the subject successful the summers. They joined the Boy Scouts earlier it got specified a atrocious rep. There was immoderate absorption for that benignant of energy. But what's filling that now? What tin a antheral young idiosyncratic bash to consciousness valued by nine and not similar a full failure?

Well, yes, they tin enactment successful Jordan Peterson treatment groups.

But that's not a precise unchangeable platform.

But if nine is not taking the voices of young men earnestly and we are progressively suppressing the voices and the occurrence of women, I would argue…

Yes.

Whose voices bash you deliberation are being taken seriously?

Exactly. Well, I deliberation you're astir apt amended placed to reply that question than I am. But each clip Elon Musk opens his mouth, radical instrumentality that seriously. So I would accidental tech bro billionaires are taken seriously. Who else? I don't know. Are we gonna count, quote, “influencers”? I deliberation a batch of podcasters person beauteous devoted followings. But again, it's precise fractured.

I deliberation you conscionable nailed it, though, and I'm really moving done this portion we talk. Everyone takes someone's dependable seriously. But it is simply a fractured ecosystem. So we are each looking to a antithetic root of truth.

Yeah, that's true. And that happened astatine the extremity of the 19th period with the literate community, which had been beauteous monolithic successful the mediate of that century. By the extremity of it, it was beauteous divided up. So I deliberation anytime you present a caller communications technology, you're gonna get a batch of disruption. Let maine conscionable notation the Gutenberg property followed by 300 years of sectarian spiritual warfare.

When WIRED’s Kate Knibbs interviewed you a fewer years ago, you said “I americium not counting the United States out.”

No, and I'm inactive not.

You know, everybody wants a small spot of hope.

Well, archetypal of all, Canadians shouldn't beryllium huffy astatine Americans.

Well, you archer that to my dad's wife.

All Americans didn't bash this.

Well, she's not huffy astatine me. There are conscionable galore radical successful my beingness successful Canada who don't privation to travel to the United States anymore.

They're scared.

Yeah. It's hard.

Yeah, particularly with this caller happening that you person to bring 5 years of societal media information…

Disqualifying for many, galore people.

So yeah, they're scared, they're apprehensive, and they don't privation to instrumentality the chance. That's not the aforesaid arsenic being huffy astatine each American people, which is conscionable stupid.

Of course. I person really been amazed successful the past twelvemonth astatine however small resistance, comparatively speaking, we are seeing successful the United States. You know, employees astatine the large tech companies that we screen astatine WIRED, they person fundamentally been silenced.

They don't wanna beryllium fired.

They don't wanna beryllium fired. The executives moving those companies are having fancy palace dinners with the president of the United States. Everyday Americans are protesting present and there. We've seen immoderate truly important protests astatine times, but what would a revolutionary infinitesimal successful this state look like?

First of all, the absorption is disposable successful the polls, which I'm definite you're tracking.

Yeah. Of course.

They've been going down, down, down, down, down. So if you're acrophobic of getting fired and don't privation the decease threats and each the remainder of it due to the fact that you spoke retired successful public, you tin explicit your sentiment astatine the ballot container and successful an anonymous poll. We are seeing that, we are seeing each those Democrats that got elected, and we're seeing the polls going down. So, it's there. But again, you person to recognize that mean radical are not billionaires and they person jobs.

A genuinely revolutionary infinitesimal would beryllium similar the French Revolution implicit a span of 2 oregon 3 years, which started out, arsenic each these things do, they each commencement retired arsenic utopian visions. Things are gonna beryllium truthful overmuch amended if lone we … capable successful the blank. Then you extremity up with Stalin. So, I'm not definite you truly privation that benignant of revolution, which usually says teardrop it each down. So I'm not definite that you truly privation the terror.

No, I don't. For my family, for myself, what I privation is for radical to amusement up astatine the midterms and past amusement up successful 2028 and for determination to beryllium a peaceful modulation of power.

Well, I deliberation that's rather apt to hap close now, arsenic to the midterms, due to the fact that the economical policies that we person been seeing person not been successful.

Surprise, surprise.

That's wherever it hits people: successful the pouch book. If you look astatine revolutions done the ages, they usually commencement by being astir money.

Yeah.

And successful unequal distributions of powerfulness and wealth. I've thought for a small portion that things were getting mode excessively apical dense successful that state and dangerously adjacent to 1792.

Well, 1 situation present is that the midterms don't lick for the grotesque wealthiness disparities that we present spot successful the United States.

No, they don't, but they whitethorn astatine slightest not summation them.

I privation to inquire you, speaking of power, and the consolidation of powerfulness successful Big Tech, astir artificial intelligence. That is simply a taxable astir which I cognize precise little, but that it's a crap writer and a beauteous atrocious imitator of me.

You've written astir this. You wrote for The Atlantic, “What concerns maine is the thought that an author's dependable and caput are replicable.” I mean, that is 1 of galore concerns astir artificial intelligence. When you work astir this, erstwhile you work astir AI creation oregon AI successful writing, wherever bash you beryllium connected the conception that AI tin beryllium a utile and productive instrumentality successful the instauration of works of art?

It's similar perfectly each different quality instrumentality that we person ever travel up with, including occurrence and language. So it has bully news, it has atrocious news. It's got anserine consequences that cipher was reasoning astir and they're each similar that. Name one, and that is what you volition see.

Do you usage it?

For what?

Anything—brainstorming, managing your calendar?

No, astir apt due to the fact that I don't cognize how.

Do you springiness a crap astir learning astatine this point?

I don't know. I mean, the happening is, anytime you motion connected to immoderate of those things, they're getting a batch of information connected you.

They definite are.

They're gonna bombard you with crap. So my occupation astatine the infinitesimal is not adding different 1 is getting escaped of immoderate of the ones that I have. You whitethorn person noticed that if you unsubscribe, it has nary effect.

How overmuch clip bash you walk online? What is your narration to the internet? People similar maine spend, you know, astir of our waking hours online.

Do you?

I mean, yeah.

What bash you bash for fun?

What bash I do?

Yeah.

I run, I bent retired with my daughter. I read. I cook.

OK. So you're not spending each of your beingness online?

Well, my occupation exists connected the internet. My phone, I'm holding it up close now, is tethered to my body.

Well, I'm not antithetic successful that respect. I besides usage my telephone to support successful interaction with people, usually with substance messages. I bash a batch of doomscrolling.

You're a doomscroller.

I privation to support up with the latest doom.

You gotta, if you wanna slumber astatine night, you amended beryllium doomscrolling. That's what I say.

Do you?

No, I mean, I'm kidding. It's awful. My hubby volition beryllium up till 2 successful the greeting looking astatine horrible headlines.

What you should archer him is “go to sleep, and erstwhile you aftermath up successful the morning, it volition beryllium the same.” You don't person to bash it astatine night.

So erstwhile bash you doomscroll?

At night.

When I was rereading this interrogation you did successful 2023 with WIRED you talked astir a exertion that you really invented yourself.

I'm putting punctuation marks astir “invented,” due to the fact that it's rather a anserine story.

I would emotion to perceive the story.

So the communicative is this: Back successful the aboriginal 2000s, I was looking astatine the publishing assemblage and I was seeing a mates of things. One was that publishers lone ever sent authors connected tours to cities that reported to the New York Times lists. So that meant that a batch of cities were being excluded. They conscionable ne'er got immoderate writer visits, and a batch of authors were being excluded due to the fact that their publishers were making the determination that it wasn't worthy their concern to nonstop them to these different cities.

So a batch of radical conscionable weren't being fixed tools for promoting their ain books. So what we invented astatine archetypal was expected to beryllium a work to the publication business. What it was, and here's erstwhile I enactment quotation marks astir it, I thought that the FedEx idiosyncratic who was coming with the bundle that you signed for, I thought the signature was flying done the aerial and turning into ink determination else, but it wasn't. So I said “Oh goody, we tin motion books with this.” Actually no, you can't. So I asked immoderate of my much tech-savvy, and I person to accidental younger, friends. And they took a look and determination wasn’t thing similar that. The closest happening was long-distance surgery.

So cipher had invented thing that could scribble and you wouldn't wanna scribble connected a assemblage with a weapon anyway, I don't think.

Most of america would not, no.

Not successful a affirmative way.

No.

So we acceptable astir inventing this thing. It was going to beryllium a distant book-signing technology. This is earlier immoderate of the worldly that we presently usage for it existed. So we were putting unneurotic bits that did exist, similar video cams, and determination was lone 1 signing tablet that you could get astatine that time. We were sticking them each together. Then we needed to marque thing that would accommodate a publication connected the different end.

It had to person a lift, due to the fact that books person a thickness; it had to beryllium capable to determination up and down. The thought was that radical could springiness interviews successful distant places and past motion the person's book. We did invent it. It took immoderate bizarre twists and turns on the way. I deliberation 1 of our models progressive thing that looked similar an LP disc with a small pen successful the bottom. It was precise close and it was precise fast, but it was excessively fast. So it broke disconnected and flew crossed the room.

Oh no.

Not cutting disconnected anybody's head, but it mightiness have. So with each of these things, you person to person thing that's close that tin beryllium made inexpensive capable truthful radical tin really usage it. And is charismatic capable immoderate radical volition privation to usage it and that they tin spot a usage for it. Well, the publication concern didn't truly grasp the quality of the concept. But I said to 1 of my committee members, “Frank, what other bash you deliberation this mightiness beryllium bully for?” And helium said, “Everything.”

You tin spell onto the net and look up Syngrafii, oregon you tin look up iinked and you tin spot that we are present successful the ace unafraid perfectly accurate, agelong distance, integer and ink signature business.

Are you inactive actively successful that business?

Yes.

It's a large broadside hustle.

It's what?

It's a large broadside hustle.

It's a precise absorbing broadside hustle due to the fact that we've seen it germinate implicit the years. The absorbing happening is, due to the fact that publication collectors erstwhile we were archetypal doing it were truthful highly picky astir it being perfectly accurate, 1 of them said, “I privation the tegument flakes connected the paper.”

They weren't gonna judge signatures that weren't the existent person's signature. So what we invented is thing that volition replicate immoderate marks you make, and you tin present bash it connected your phone. There weren't immoderate phones erstwhile we started. You tin bash it connected your machine screen. And our carnal mentation that we started with, that we thought would go obsolete, it's present having an accrued request due to the fact that radical are becoming much distrustful of digital. It’s truthful hackable.

The analog revolution.

Well, determination is that. Some of that is happening.

Yeah, for sure.

Talking to young people, they're into vinyl LPs and things similar that. These caller phones that you can't bash thing astute on. It's conscionable a phone.

I americium each for it.

How revolutionary, “Hey, this is simply a telephone that doesn't bash anything. I'm getting one!”

I cognize we lone person a fewer minutes left, and I privation to inquire you astir the book. I don’t privation to springiness thing away, but I finished it, and—I'm gonna beryllium precise honorable with you here—I near wondering whether you would ever people thing again. I besides ended the publication feeling similar you are, if I whitethorn accidental this, reasoning astir your ain death.

Oh, I deliberation astir my ain decease each the time, don't you?

I do, but it reads arsenic possibly much imminent than however I deliberation astir death.

No. It's not imminent.

Well, no, let's not program connected that.

[But] not successful the acold distant future.

Do you program to support writing?

You don't program to support writing.

You conscionable do.

You support penning and past you tin marque plans astir that. But you really don't power whether immoderate of your fantastically superb ideas is going to crook into a book. You person to observe that done the process of doing it.

Do you deliberation astir your legacy, astir however you're remembered and talked about? Do you care?

I don't care.

You don't attraction astatine all.

No, due to the fact that I'm not gonna beryllium here. Also, looking astatine the lives of writers, usually they die, past there's a small flurry of involvement successful their work, past they spell down, and past determination mightiness beryllium a revival, but it usually follows the aforesaid trajectory. And it is generational, truthful you cognize “Oh, my ma work that. Ick.”

So it usually does that happening of going down and past if you're fortunate it comes up again. But it's not gonna beryllium your luck, it's gonna beryllium your estate's luck.

To me, I deliberation thing I've ever appreciated astir penning and astir books is determination is simply a permanence to that. Maybe a much fleeting permanence than I'm consenting to admit, oregon privation to admit.

More chancey, a chance-ier permanence.

Yeah. By which you mean possibly it sticks …

By which I mean determination were a batch much Greek classical plays than we have, and we cognize astir them, they existed, but we don't person immoderate copies anymore.

So yet it's excessively overmuch to interest about, and what bash we attraction erstwhile we're dead?

What would I bash astir it? I can't power the future, contrary to fashionable opinion. So it's 1 of those things of wherefore interest due to the fact that you can't bash thing astir it anyway.

This brings maine to the cleanable spot to end, which is with this abbreviated crippled I'm gonna unit you to play.

You deliberation you're gonna unit maine to bash something?

I'm gonna try. The abbreviated crippled I'm going to politely petition you to play is called Control, Alt, Delete. So, what portion of exertion would you emotion to control? What portion would you alt, truthful change oregon change? And what would you delete? What would you vanquish from the world if fixed the opportunity?

Oh, that's interesting. So the archetypal 1 is, what 1 would I similar to beryllium capable to control?

Yeah.

Do I get atomic bombs?

Yes.

OK, I'll take that. Well, I would bash thing with them, but I would beryllium successful power of that nothing. I would beryllium successful power of whether thing got done with them oregon not. So if they're each nether my control, the satellite would beryllium harmless from them.

OK. What would you alter? What would you wanna change?

What would I privation to change? OK. I deliberation I would similar to alteration the precise nasty crook that societal media took aft that archetypal play erstwhile it was fun. Because it was amusive astatine first.

It was.

And present it's not truthful overmuch fun.

Nope.

So I deliberation parts of it are inactive fun, but you person to truly bounds what you're accessing, due to the fact that the remainder of it is not amusive astatine all.

What was the 3rd part?

Delete.

What would I delete? Do I get a ample swath of it?

Yes. Go large oregon spell home.

That's truthful tempting. It's truthful tempting and it's truthful beset with traps: There was a aureate property and we could spell backmost to that if lone we got escaped of name-your-thing-to-get-rid-of. So, I'd truly astir apt person to deliberation astir that. But let's accidental we should commencement with the problems besetting humanity and dial backmost from there. How astir that?

A methodical strategical approach.

So past it would beryllium the automobile.

Wow. OK.

Because we person a occupation with lipid addiction, arsenic you know.

Yes.

We besides person a occupation with municipality enlargement beyond the quality to marque those bases interesting, vibrant, and safe. What allows those spaces to beryllium truthful large is accelerated transportation.

Cars.

So, I mightiness bash that. I mightiness spell backmost arsenic acold arsenic choo-choo trains.

I similar this.

But past we would beryllium stuck with a batch of horses and past we person a equine poop problem. How would this work?

Yeah. You don't get to choose.

Well, it astir apt takes america into the property of steampunk to a definite extent. You know, dial it backmost and spot if it turns retired a spot differently.

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